Flower Garden killer games.

In the last two weeks, Flower Garden has had two killer games. I give myself a week to solve them and I did just figure out the one from last week. The one from two weeks ago had one tableau pile with a King covering three Aces and another pile with a King covering a 3 and two 2's. I was able to free the Aces one way and and the 3 and two 2's another way, but could figure out how to clear both piles. Now that I have solved last week's killer I regret not saving the number of the other killer so I could continue trying. Does anyone know the game number of that game?
Thanks, Dave

Comments

  • The first three are still on the leader board, so I wouldn't need help finding them (4, 5, and 6 days ago respectively). The other two look vaguely familiar and neither are currently on the leader board so they could have been from two weeks ago, but aren't the one described above.
    Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to look.
    Thanks,
    Dave

  • Here are some hard (but solvable) flower garden games if anybody likes to play challenging ones:

    223372524
    70967562
    1211306712
    1719007729
    310639945
    1222692474

  • lcc123lcc123 REGISTERED
    edited September 2021 2.56.190.191

    @dbwoerner
    Here are some that I haven't solved, but I think can possibly be solved (usually down to one move from winning):
    1930481657
    2834765429
    1979896177

    let me know if you can figure out.

  • Wow, I can see you love Flower Garden! All but one of the ones listed must be games you get after playing the game of the day - I can tell because I've never played them. The other one was a recent GOTD that appears to be unsolvable - I'm pretty confident that if no one here has solved a game it's most likely impossible. I tend to be a one game of each of my favorites kind of guy, but if I can find the time I'll try to solve one of the others and let you know how I did. Flower Garden is my current number 1 fav B^) Thanks for the response...Dave

  • @dbwoerner
    Yes, Flower garden is my favorite game also, and I usually play a bunch of easier games until i find one that is a challenge. But I wouldn't necessarily say that because nobody has previously found a solution that a game is unsolvable-as from what I have seen, it would appear that most people give up after a few minutes or whenever matching what the existing high score is.

  • There have been quite a few "games of the day" that haven't been solved until the next day which implies to me there are enough dedicated players to uncover the solution to most games. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't solvable games that no one has managed to solve in a weeks time - I just think there are enough dedicated players out there to find the solutions to most solvable layouts. Now with Spider, the complexity of the game is so much higher I'm sure there are many more solvable games that go unsolved here.

    I will admit if I'm short of time, I am satisfied to match the current highest score for Flower Garden games B^)

  • @dbwoerner
    Funny you mention spider solitaire, I actually stumbled across this website while searching for people that had written computer programs that would run simulations to see if a given game of spider solitaire was solvable--and if so how many moves it would take to come up with a valid solution and the amount of time. Of the original 32000 games in the Windows XP version of spider solitaire, there are 2 games that are known to be unwinnable. If interested you can see details here: https://www.tranzoa.net/~alex/plspider.htm

  • @dbwoerner ... I like the thought behind this post but was wondering if you couldn't have come up with a more imaginative name for the original message...
    Perhaps Garden Pests might be appropriate

  • @homedoggy: Glad to see the patented Green Felt Form humor in one of my threads B^)

    @lcc123: I think I might have seen the spider study you pointed to - it kinda looks familiar. If it was referenced in this forum I saw it a while ago. It confirms what I had concluded by being obsessed with Spider for well over a decade - the game is almost always winnable. I had written a solitaire engine as a programming exercise and added Spider which I had never played at the time. In the process of debugging code I concluded that Spider was unwinnable ... until I solved one and thought it was amazing how it worked out if you found the right path. By the time the debugging was complete I concluded that it was mostly winnable and set out to see how many games I could win before being stumped. (Obviously, you could lay out cards to make it unwinnable, but random layouts are different)

    My game allowed you to save what I called history files that you could open later to try a new tactic. There are many places in the game where there are a huge number of options going forward, so I would save it there so I could start there again and try something else. I would tack a letter on the end of the game number when I saved a promising path. On challenging games, I would some times run out of letters and go to "za", "zb" etc. and take weeks or even months to find the solution (playing maybe 15 minutes at time a couple of times a day). After over a decade of this, I finally ran into one that I couldn't solve and that was the end of that B^) The one I gave up on even had a path with two empty tableau piles and I still couldn't get any further...

    Anyway, if someone is smart enough to write a Spider game that can find solutions, I tip my hat to them. I tried to do this with Seahaven Towers, a much simpler game, and *always" ended up in an endless loop - I couldn't imagine trying to so it with Spider.

    Well, dinner calls!
    Dave

  • @dbwoerner I have thought about writing a "solving engine" also for both spider and flower garden, but that is not the typical type of programming that I do. And more importantly, I wasn't sure how to deal efficiently with multiple move options (possible branches as you mention) that can occur at the same time other than a some type of brute force method of trying each permutation individually. I know that there are some areas of mathematics that are very good at finding solutions of multiple simultaneous equations--linear algebra comes to mind. But I only had an intro course years ago and never solved many "practical real world" types of problems.

    FWIW: This game is winnable but fairly difficult (I had listed above as "possible"):
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=1979896177

  • So far I've only managed to get 8 on that one, so yeah it is a killer game B^) I have another one that I bookmarked before it left the leader board that also has me stumped B^(

  • Do you know the game #?

  • It's the one you just mentioned above (that you have solved)

  • I've been working on the last two games of the day both of which I have found difficult. I just managed yesterday's but I'm still stuck on today's (soon to be yesterday's as it's almost dinnertime here B^). I see you solved today's, but I didn't see you on the leader board for yesterday's (though I would guess you solved it, but didn't make the top ten)
    Again, dinner calls B^)

  • I don't worry about times. I assume that most people that solve a game with 70+ moves (unless very simple) in less than a minute figure out the solution as "anonymous", memorize, then log in and type in solution as quickly as possible. I seem to average around 2-3.5min for 70-90 moves. I have seen scripts that can automate the entry process, so I would assume as some point you will see all the top solutions within seconds. It would seem this has already occurred in freecell and some of the more popular games. Maybe if they ordered leader board in 1st person to last person to solve it would mitigate, but I am sure somebody would figure a way around.

  • I also don't worry about the times, but it's hard not to notice since the leader board (which I use to remember which games I haven't solved) is by default set for speed. The point of a puzzle game is to solve it. Then, if you want to, frantically make the plays to top the "speed" leader board. To each their own... My average time varies by game, but I found one Seahaven Towers game 6 days ago that I solved in 58sec with 85 moves by just luckily hitting on a productive path. It's rare for me to end up in the top ten in either moves or speed in SHT since there are so many players, but it 's kind of cool to break into the top ten B^) I don't remember the layout, but the fact that my "moves" score cracked the top ten meant it must have been a tricky one. Normally if I complete a SHT game in under a minute, the top ten is filled with scores under 30sec.

    If there is one thing certain, there is no way to arrange the leader board to show who is the "best". The only thing that might satisfy that is to have players log on at the same time and play the same game and see who solves it first. Since there are players all over the world, I can't see that happening B^)

  • I have a question that has nothing to do with the subject but it's driving me crazy. What does B^ mean? :)

  • I'm giving away my age - that's old school smilely emoji (I'm also giving away that I wear glasses). There's also
    B^( as you can see for sad (mad?) face, etc...

  • OK. I'm pretty old-school myself, and I can't see any of it (the symbolism).....but thank you for explaining it to me anyway. :)

  • Tilt your head to the left:
    B^) - a pair of glasses, a nose and a smile.
    B^( - a pair of glasses, a nose and a frown.

  • Ohhhhhhh....ROFL!!! Now I see it!!! 🤪

  • Here is another fairly difficult but winnable flower garden game:
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=2068837248

  • I got myself into 2nd place, but I have to clean up the kitchen before bedtime B^( I see you spent an hour and 51 minutes in solving it. Do you just undo/redo it until you find the solution? I find it easier to start over when when I get stymied, but then my total time is not reflected in the "high score" entry that I ultimately get. When I have a promising path, it doesn't take much time to get back to a pivotal point and try something else - that's how I end up with pretty good times sometimes (though never 3bc good times B^) ....

    I also see there were only 8 registered users on the high score board. With anonymous players, there are more than 10 so I can't tell (I didn't look when I "gave up" and anyway if players are actively playing the game, the number will change and there's no way to find the current number other than giving up again). It seems like the high score board should tell you the total number of players any time you check whether you just gave up or not. (yes, I requested this, but haven't seen any interest from the powers that be B^)

    the dishes await.....

  • @dbwoerner
    yeah I blew a bunch of hours on that one. :#

    FWIW: I find it easier to follow a line of moves until no further moves can be made and seeing which cards are preventing further play--then undoing until those specific or alternative cards are available. This might not be the most efficient, but it seems to work best for me. In that last game (#2068837248) in at least two points you have to have the exact card and suit played in the correct position in order to be able to play up to the foundations then back down to the field in order to move cards to continue play.

  • @dbwoerner
    Here is another challenging one (if interested):
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=160811057

  • This week I have have been challenged enough by the games of the day (not to mention the other 3 games I like to do), so I haven't had any spare time to try others. This thread will provide plenty if I find the time - thanks B^)

  • @dbwoerner
    I was finally able to win another one I had listed above as "maybe possible". This might be one of the hardest flower garden games I have played to date. A bunch of hours of battling and the end result showed 225+ moves, but with undo I would imagine that it was easily 1000+.
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=1930481657

  • 225 moves!! Wow!! For me, that kind of game requires a checkpoint/save feature lacking here to allow working on a puzzle in short shifts (as I tried to describe above). I tip my hat to you for solving this one B^)

  • A progress storage feature would be a really good idea! Especially in longer games like spider solitaire (I think this was standard in the Windows XP version that did not allow you to undo once a new turn of cards was dealt) . You might suggest this in the "feature request" forum, but I wouldn't get my hopes up to see it implemented. As in the past when I have I suggested improvements there, I have just gotten a bunch of smart ass off topic replies, and very little actual discussion about the pros/cons/details of implementing the actual request. I suspect this would be fairly technical type of program upgrade to add, as the program would need to be able to store the history of moves made onto your device in a file or a "cookie" (or [less likely] onto their server) for later recall. If the program was running on your own operating system, then this is fairly standard feature, but running a script on a server with all types of different devices and operating systems accessing, then I think it would require a fair bit more effort.

  • I have mentioned it before, but as you say, it would be a major task. To be really useful (spider in particular) you would need multiple "checkpoints" - sounds like a real can of worms programming-wise to me...

    I remember the XP spider and didn't play it much because I couldn't stand not being able to undo after each "deal". Here I hesitate to play spider since the hard ones get so involved I would require multiple "checkpoints" to be able to work the game long enough to solve. I like the leader board since it helps me to limit myself to one game of my favorite four games per day. Sometimes that means 10 minutes a day, but other times it can mean up to an hour or so and that's enough for me B^)

  • @dbwoerner
    Here is a game that should likely be able to be won, but I just get down to one card away from winning anyway I try to solve. Let me know if you have any better luck:
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=1829640036

  • Here is another challenging one that can be solved:
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=407346450

  • Just now managed to solve the GOTD from four days ago. I thought it would fall into place once I got all the hearts up, but no, that wasn't the end!!! We'll see if I have time to try one of you other hard ones after tackling the new GOTD (in an hour or so) B^)

  • @dbwoerner This game?
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=3634075550

    It was definitely a bit more tricky than it initially appeared, but a bunch of people seemed to be able to solve a lot quicker than me, so I assumed that I just wasn't having a good day.

  • That's the one. I guess I wasn't having five good days B^) My time as shown on the leader board certainly doesn't represent the amount of time I spent figuring it out over a period of five days. I tend to start over a lot rather than just backing up to try something else. If you got it on the first day, I'm impressed!

  • llc123: My hat's off to you solving today's Flower Garden GOTD (#1370423224). Now I'll have to spend more time on it B^)

  • That was a fairly tricky one. I rated it 4 out of 5 level of difficulty (which is a totally subjective system that I use).

  • From what i have found, if you can play off over 12-15 cards then the game is most likely winnable. I only keep track hard games and games I think that are impossible to solve, so i don't have an exact percentage. If you are bored and up for a challenge here are some high scoring games that I was unable to solve (with the maximum cards I was able to play):
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=2412024240 16
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=1148039408 19
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=1829640036 22
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=1471031262 17
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=1360840812 12
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=753516793 12
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=275435594 12

    If you are able to solve any let me know.

  • I'm thinking that if you can't solve them, they are unsolvable. I've had enough trouble with the last two ones (starting with the one that you are the only person in the world to solve - amazing! B^)

  • Most of those posted were within one move of one specific card of winning. It is easy to overlook a move 30-50 moves back on a 150+ move game, so I suspect there might be some clever folks out there that can solve some of them in less than a few minutes. :)

  • I've managed 16 for #1370423224 (the one only you have solved). The path I used to get 16 looks like a complete impasse with two different king stacks blocking the needed cards with only one empty tableau pile. I can get one of the king piles down to KQJ, but I need two spaces to get by that... Since the person with 17 used twice as many moves as my 16 and your solution used four times as many moves, I clearly need to try something radically different - but I'm out of ideas!

  • lcc123lcc123 REGISTERED
    edited January 4 24.126.195.139

    I will try to solve it again and see if I can offer some hints. Might not be able to remember--that was awhile ago. :)

    In the mean time, I just solved this game and I would rate it a 5 out of 5 for difficulty:
    https://greenfelt.net/flower?game=607448195

    It was fairly easy to play off 16+ cards, but it seemed impossible to finish out the suits due to one or more extra cards that would not allow cards to be played backed down from the piles after they had been moved up.

  • @dbwoerner

    SPOILER ALERT for anybody else: here are hints to help solve game #1370423224 please do not read further until you have attempted and are ready to give up. Note: Will need to highlight paragraph below to view:

    Have to get to the trapped pair of sevens in row 5 or will be unable to form runs for sixes and below
    *1st clear off row #6 to free up row so multiple cards can be moved
    *2nd clear off row #3 so that you will have played A-5 of diamond and clubs to the stacks up top
    *3rd clear off row #5. This is the trickiest part as you will need to play off cards until you get at least the 8 of clubs up top
    *4th from this point it probably doesn't matter, but I cleared row #2 and then it should be a standard playoff to win from there.

    Hope this helps :)

  • Thanks for the tips, but when I followed the clues, I got to the same place I was before without your hints. One of the things I originally tried was to clear tableau pile #6 and then #3, but then I always ended up with at least KQJ covering the 6 of clubs. and only one empty pile to work with. I have saved the game and may try again someday with this path since I know it's possible. Thanks again B^)
    Dave

  • A solution to #1370423224:
    1. 7♣
    2. 3♣
    3. 5♦
    4. 4♦
    5. J♦>Q♣
    6. J♣
    7. 2♦
    8. *
    9. K♣
    10. Q♥>K♣
    11. A♦
    12.10♦>J♠
    13. 8♣
    14. 9♠
    15. 5♦
    16. 4♦
    17. 3♦
    18. 7♠
    19. 6♣
    20. 5♣
    21. 4♣
    22. 3♣
    23. 6♠
    24. 5♦
    25. 4♦
    26. 3♦
    27. 6♣
    28. 8♦
    29. 9♦
    30. 10♠
    31. 9♦
    32. 8♠
    33. *
    34. K♦
    35. *

  • @dbwoerner
    I guess more people that just me and you and 3bc like to play the "killer" flower garden games as 20+ people used 3bc's detailed solution vs my general outline to solve game #1370423224 in under a couple of minutes.

    @3bc
    Do you type in recorded moves manually or have a script that generates them for you?

  • @lcc123: I don't know if 3bc has become bored with dominating the leader board or what, but 3bc is currently nowhere to be seen. A few weeks back it seemed that 3bc was making a comeback, but now there's no sign. I've been wondering why....

  • He comes and goes, surfing the games of various sites maybe. Perhaps just has other things to deal with and only plays when he can - we shall wait and see if he can enlighten us.

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